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 Post subject: the MaDnEsS of ziv zulander
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:54 am 
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Buzzy Beetle
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Is it just me, or is Ziv cruel to his Boyzz??

There are two instances that stick out in my mind. First, there is the episode called The Appointment. In this episode, ZZ implants a listening device in LLP's mouth. However, the transmission is garbled, so they sneak onto LLP's property. In the process of getting to his mansion, they must cross a pond. Apparently, ZZ didn't program Gene-Six to swim. So, when Gene-Six voices his concern about drowning, ZZ replies with "sink or swim". For someone who claims to love his creations, that is a very cruel statement to make. Especially when Gene-Six is his first Boyzz, and thus has a stronger sentimental attachment than the others.

The second episode is Photo Finish. Now in this episode, ZZ kinda covers his ass. Apparenly, Dr. Hiss has taken some x-ray photos of the internal workings of the Boyzz. So, their mission is to break into Dr. Hiss' office and steal the photos. Toolz is terrified of heights. This is no secret. In almost every episode, Toolz is forced to jump from Jungle Fiver, buildings, cliffs, etc. So, in Photo Finish, Toolzz has a nervous breakdown at the thought of jumping out of Jungle Fiver yet again. ZZ bails on this, and gets the Sports Boyzz to jump instead. But why did it have to come to that?? Toolz has always been afraid and yet there was no re-programming, therapy, or special treatment.

I find that although ZZ insists that they be called Boyzz; he himself treats them as though they were possessions. Obviously, he is concerned for them, but only AFTER they are already injured. He dismisses their fear as though their feelings aren't real. The Boyzz are all too forgiving of his short-comings.

I put forth the idea that Ziv Zulander is not a mild-mannered, humble genius who has the world's best interests at heart; but a self-centered, man-whore asshole who has to create Beings to be friends with, and then program them to like him.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:21 am 
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Koopa Paratroopa
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You gotta point there. ZZ's BOYZZ may be thinking bots but they only think the way he wants them too. I laugh every time he says "I love you" to them, but I laugh even harder when he turns around and makes them jump out of an airplane. Thats some twisted love. Hisss treats his Beastbot with more respect. :lol:

-Jen


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:18 pm 
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King Koopa
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Ziv created the BOYZZ to be his friends and states as much in the show. They are essentially his slaves though. What if a BOYZZ wanted to go out on his own? I'm not sure Ziv would be so on board with that.

The Toolz thing with heights and Genesix thing with water are played for comedy and while funny, really are heartless.

In the episode "This Land is my Land" D'Nerd video tapes the RM Corp's bots destroying property and basically going through with the corp's threath against the O'Connor family who's property they wanted to build a factory. When D'Nerd mentions he forgot to put a tape in the camera Ziv jokingly threatens "D'Nerd! I should disasemble you!!" and they show D'Nerd all heartbroken at the though and we fade out on everyone laughing at this thread. Would the reaction be the same if Heathcliffe Huxtable told Theo he would disect him for doing as much?

The show preaches for respect for AI which is nice but in the end it the heroes don't live up to the message they preach very well.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:24 am 
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True, true. It seems there some kind of mental abuse going on too. Verbal threats, neglect, etc. At times it seems that the Boyzz are afraid of ZZ. They are intimidated when they have to ask him an important question -- like whether they are 'allowed' to go on a mission alone or not. And, ZZ doesn't like to explain things either. He just dimisses things and since his word is final...
In Blind Date, the Boyzz don't know that you can't buy people. Blitzy takes Zivs lead and doesn't explain why. Plus she gets mad at the fact that they don't understand. She also alludes that the Boyzz have many unanswered questions. So, the Boyzz are denied information and controlled by oppression. The Boyzz are scared to go outside the base alone. For intelligent bots, they sure have to have their hand held when they do something. What happened to us being afraid of AI because it was smarter than us?? Ziv has taken care of that by making them feel inferior, and frightened. You SUCK Zulander!! :P

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:49 am 
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King Koopa
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In blind data Ziv simply tells Watson and D'Nerd that "It's different with people" when it comes to buying people or bots out of a catalogue when what he should be saying is that 3As are mindless automatons while BOYZZ can think for themselves and that they could never be sold in a catalogue. But that's not how Ziv feels at all. He makes a clear distinction between human and BOYZZ.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:08 pm 
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I admit I do cheer on the Corp in their attempts at world domination. Mainly because in a way thier setting bots above humans in society. Like in the ep "ZZ Come Back" when the Corp took over ZZ's old home town they had the greenbots policeing the streets and telling people what to do. Sure they were only doing Paradim's dirty work but still the bots were above humans in the chain of command. Paradim sees people as mere pawns to be controlled, just like machines, except bots can get him what he wants: total control.

ZZ on the other hand sees bots as just toys to play with. Even though they can think he still treats them like possessions. Sure ZZ loves his bots, but that love is the same as a child who loves his favorite toy. To Ziv no matter how intellegent, free thinking or strong willed a bot gets it can still never be anything more than a mere possession because "its not a human".

In the ep were Hisss captured D'nerd Paradim didn't want him to take the bot apart, instead he had D'nerd brought to his office to speak with it in a way that a human would talk with another person. But when Paradim found out D'nerd was a talking dictionary he got annoyed and threatened Hisss, not the bot. Paradim seems to have a higher respect for bots than humans.

Different people have different attitudes towards bots, ZZ being the hero doesn't have much respect for bots, but the villians at the Corps do. Kind of an ironic twist, but one of those things that makes the show so appealing. ^_^

-Jen


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:32 pm 
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But Paradim only respects bots more because he respects humans so little!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:53 am 
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I agree with Jen!! Paradim does treat useful things with more respect. As opposed to ZZ who has little respect for the Boyzz who are not only useful but also beings he created. ZZ treats the Boyzz like they are an old art project he made for his mother and is no longer proud of. Paradim is always so cool and collected. So sinister in his thought processes. Ziv should take a leaf out of his book sometime, rather than just fly by the seat of his un-fashionable pants. He makes for such a terrible role model. Unfortunately he is the sole provider for several life forms and a young 'lady'. I would think that someone who had the power to create intelligent life would have a little more respect for the lives he created. The Boyzz are treated like stray dogs. He cares if they are injured, but it doesn't matter if they're not trained properly or if he doesn't see them for a few days. What was that catchy phrase in Spiderman?...."with great power comes great responsibility". Ziv couldn't take responsible care of a goldfish.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:59 pm 
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You could say that Paradim is fighting for the rights of the bots. He is the one that wants to mass produce thinking bots and spread them around the world.

ZZ by supressing the technology and controlling the number of BOYZZ produced is essentially thwarting the natural spread of the species. They could reproduce as we see by the fact that Genesix himself is able to create BOYZZ.

Ziv fights to protect the world of humans while LLP fights to establish robot supremacy over the world.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:31 pm 
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aDam wrote:
Ziv fights to protect the world of humans while LLP fights to establish robot supremacy over the world.


I think it's actually the other way around as far as Paradim is concerned. The entire purpose of the Krang Chip is to control bots so he could rule over Humans, rather than establishing bots as a higher hierachy --- this latter thought seems more plausible given the debut of the Thinking Greenbots at the end of the series, but doesn't make much sense given the original Krang Chip Upgrading plot. Meaning, even though the robots would be those actually doing the coup d'etats and assassinations and such, the RM Corp, including most of its other human employees (because they do exist, even though we never see heads or tails of them; Paula mentions that her parents work for the RM Corp), would be in complete control of them all the same. It'd just be Humans using Bots under complete control to rule other Humans.

Even with the Thinking Bots available to the Corp at the end, I seriously doubt Paradim would use the Brain Grain much beyond a few select, maybe 'custom' units, and certainly not to upgrade an entire MDB as Hisss suggested. With the pending investigation against the Corp at the end of the series, the RM Corp would have everything to lose if one of their own Thinking Bots develop erroneous thinking and rebels against them. Paradim wouldn't want to defeat Zulander and become leader only to have the Thinking Bots steal the world from underneath him...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:36 am 
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Had the series continued it would have been highly probable that thinking bots would eventually overthrow Paradim cause they'd view humans as the "weaker species" and Ziv fighting to save the world from thinking bots instead of a power hungry corperation. After all, Paradims thinking bots would be evil and trained to oppress humans, so it wouldnt surprise me if they tried to take over the world for themselves.

I bet Frenzy, Hisss and the humabots would have deflected to ZZs team right after Paradim took over the world because at that point they are pretty much useless to him. (remember the ep where Hisss joined ZZ cause he was afraid LLP was going to fire him. To the Corp uselessness probably means certain death)

With ZZs cheesyness of "love" for his bots, the moral of the story would be that a good bot is the one who is loved by his creator.

-Jen


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:10 pm 
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Cybaster wrote:
aDam wrote:
Ziv fights to protect the world of humans while LLP fights to establish robot supremacy over the world.


I think it's actually the other way around as far as Paradim is concerned. The entire purpose of the Krang Chip is to control bots so he could rule over Humans, rather than establishing bots as a higher hierachy ---
Oh I know I was mostly kidding.

Quote:
this latter thought seems more plausible given the debut of the Thinking Greenbots at the end of the series, but doesn't make much sense given the original Krang Chip Upgrading plot.
The Krang chip plot was a means. World domination was the end. When thinking bots are available then that superseeds mere Krang chips as a way to take over humanity. So go out and put Krang/thinking bot chips in a bunch of bots and then when the time comes to switch you have bots under your complete control as well as thinking bots in the mix. There's no sense in completely abandoning the Krang chip plot. Just go where it is. The Krang chips have already penetrated almost every level of society in a large majority of the bots. So they, along with the thinking bots, could eliminate any resistance.

Quote:
Meaning, even though the robots would be those actually doing the coup d'etats and assassinations and such, the RM Corp, including most of its other human employees (because they do exist, even though we never see heads or tails of them; Paula mentions that her parents work for the RM Corp), would be in complete control of them all the same. It'd just be Humans using Bots under complete control to rule other Humans.
I don't believe it would have been a good plot to give the corp employee control over the bots with Krang chips. Hisss appears to have control and clearly Paradim is calling the shots but it would be foolish not to plan for the contingency that at least some of the employees would not go along with plans of world domination once they became known and giving them the ability to thwart such plans.

Quote:
Even with the Thinking Bots available to the Corp at the end, I seriously doubt Paradim would use the Brain Grain much beyond a few select, maybe 'custom' units, and certainly not to upgrade an entire MDB as Hisss suggested. With the pending investigation against the Corp at the end of the series, the RM Corp would have everything to lose if one of their own Thinking Bots develop erroneous thinking and rebels against them. Paradim wouldn't want to defeat Zulander and become leader only to have the Thinking Bots steal the world from underneath him...
Well that all depends on how they can do it. They may be able to think but that doesn't mean their basic programming isn't totally controlled by who creates them. So make subroutines restricting them from overthrowing the corp or whatever. Asimov's 3 laws are a good example of this. Obviously those laws would not work for the corp but some variant may.

That being said a story where the corp's thinking bots rebel and ZZ and the corp, with their non thinking bots, are in a struggle against the thinking bots and, presumeably their army of bots, would have made for an interesting continuation of the series.

Quote:
I bet Frenzy, Hisss and the humabots would have deflected to ZZs team right after Paradim took over the world because at that point they are pretty much useless to him. (remember the ep where Hisss joined ZZ cause he was afraid LLP was going to fire him. To the Corp uselessness probably means certain death)
Alternatively I think it would be in Hisss's power to overthrow LLP. He's the one that knows that bots more than anyone and he's the one that seem to call the shots when the Krang chip upgraded bots are made to do the Corp's bidding. Who knows what kind of overrides and such what members of the corp have.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:14 am 
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I love this little battle going on here. I can't help but be amused. Predicting the outcome of cartoon based world domination :D.

Now, I haven't seen the episode The Setting Sun since the series left the air. I'm waiting for it to be uploaded on YouTube. Didn't some human figure out how to make intelligent bots?? Who's to say he didn't put his own safeguards in his creations. Safeguards that would complete their mission to take over the world for Paradim, but then overthrow him to be replaced by their creator??

I don't think the Boyzz would ever dream of a mutany against Ziv. They would be overcome with joy if he won out the Corp and/or ruled the world. So, there must be some kind of programming that stops them from realizing what a dick head he is. I can just imagine Ninjazz becoming second in command :P. They all jump when he speaks.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:05 pm 
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A young man named Barnett created the brain grain. As the story goes you simply have to insert the brain grain into a pre-existing bot to make it a thinking bot.

Had he made the thinking bots from scratch he would have had full control over what they do, think and are limited by failsafe wise. I would imagine with the brain grain such things are dictated by the bot it's placed in and that the chip simply enhanced the bot's ability.

But this being a completely fictional technology there's really no saying...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:31 am 
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Jen wrote:
Different people have different attitudes towards bots, ZZ being the hero doesn't have much respect for bots, but the villians at the Corps do. Kind of an ironic twist, but one of those things that makes the show so appealing. ^_^

-Jen


Even more ironic is that it was ZZ who created the very first 3A that the Corp now uses on a mass-production scale. I guess the Corp ended up appreciating their star products far, far more than ZZ ever did... :roll:

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